Hill
Member
Hi trying to get some input on with zenoah motor would be better for my xt the 27.2 full ESP modified or th 29.5 race port from daves discount motors I am using I on a track and input would be nice thanks
Zenoah motor swap on xt
- Thread starter Hill
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Mike1970
Well-Known Member
For racing on road, 23cc oddified 4 bolt - for racing off road 26cc oddified red top 4 bolt.
A Samba pipe would compliment these engines very well.
Job done!!!!!!!!!
Mike1970
Well-Known Member
Your choice dude. I wouldn't touch a basher engine tuner with a long pole, if you're racing you want something with race pedigree.
motorman
Well-Known Member
esp's porting is championship porting. just not in the baja world. his porting has won a lot of goped races and some championships. ide say if his porting can pull a human around with authority then it will defo toss a baja around the track quite well. i actually have had a lot of his topends and they perform best of all ive ran. i port my own now and pretty much use his specs. of course this is for my own use. it saves me a ton and i like doing it.
i completely understand mike, that you prefer a certain builder, but to call them "basher engines" is kind of an ass hatish thing to say, to be frank about it. besides, you throw away all the fancy ecu balogna, run an oddified and esp ported zen engine head to head, ide put my money on the esp everytime.
i completely understand mike, that you prefer a certain builder, but to call them "basher engines" is kind of an ass hatish thing to say, to be frank about it. besides, you throw away all the fancy ecu balogna, run an oddified and esp ported zen engine head to head, ide put my money on the esp everytime.
Sharkey
Well-Known Member
power isnt everything in a race engine, you need fuel economy and a smooth powerband too. motors that are built off horsepower claims arent the answer. they are great for the average guy, make a pile of power in a narrow powerband, suck the fuel back, but put a huge smile on your face, thats their job. when you need to make a full race on whats in your tank, a lot more goes into the engine than brute power.
for a race engine, race results speak the truth. if esp engines are so great why do we not see them on the podium at all the major races around the world? im sure an esp can smoke an oddy in a straight line, or even in a few laps, but is it going to be ahead after 40 minutes? hard to say, more of that comes down to the driver.
for a race engine, race results speak the truth. if esp engines are so great why do we not see them on the podium at all the major races around the world? im sure an esp can smoke an oddy in a straight line, or even in a few laps, but is it going to be ahead after 40 minutes? hard to say, more of that comes down to the driver.
motorman
Well-Known Member
i agree with what you are saying.
esp engines make power over the broadest spectrum of any builders porting that ive ran. try one and you will be impressed, ill bet on it.
there are builders that port thier engines just like you are refering to. really sharp, narrow powerbands and such, and those suck for racing. esp is a race ported engine, not a fullmod revver. im not talking out my arse when i say this, it is true. try one and you will see.
note: i never said an oddie was not a good race engine. i just couldnt understand how esp could be marked as a basher engine. they make great track engines.
also, pipe plays a huge role in how an engine performs on the track, not just porting. poopy porting will come through on the track no matter what but esp race porting will respond well to pipe tuning on the track.
driver skilz is the most important part for sure.
you don't see esp enignes on the podium cuz we(americans) are so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to 1/5th scale racing that we never really have had our foot in the door in that segment of the hobby. here in the US we are mostly bashers, that is true, and the racers, they use stock engines to race on the track. this is offroad racing that im refering to, don't know much about onroad. that is really small here in the US. way different between here and everywhere else in the world!!
all im saying, is esp is a good "race" engine, not just a basher engine.
esp engines make power over the broadest spectrum of any builders porting that ive ran. try one and you will be impressed, ill bet on it.
there are builders that port thier engines just like you are refering to. really sharp, narrow powerbands and such, and those suck for racing. esp is a race ported engine, not a fullmod revver. im not talking out my arse when i say this, it is true. try one and you will see.
note: i never said an oddie was not a good race engine. i just couldnt understand how esp could be marked as a basher engine. they make great track engines.
also, pipe plays a huge role in how an engine performs on the track, not just porting. poopy porting will come through on the track no matter what but esp race porting will respond well to pipe tuning on the track.
driver skilz is the most important part for sure.
you don't see esp enignes on the podium cuz we(americans) are so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to 1/5th scale racing that we never really have had our foot in the door in that segment of the hobby. here in the US we are mostly bashers, that is true, and the racers, they use stock engines to race on the track. this is offroad racing that im refering to, don't know much about onroad. that is really small here in the US. way different between here and everywhere else in the world!!
all im saying, is esp is a good "race" engine, not just a basher engine.
Mike1970
Well-Known Member
I don't use an ECU and if I did it would only be for information such as run time, peak rpm and such - as you may be aware, they have the ability to run various maps to change the engine performance which to be honest, I don't need.
The reason I call them basher engine tuners is because thats what they are. MMR/BZM mcro ESP, TS, ONB and the rest don't do pure race engines for RC cars - if they did, you'd see them on the track at major events like has already been said. I've emailed various engine tuners over the years and none of them are interested/have the ability to give me what I require in a race engine - this doesn't mean that they're not good engine tuners or no good in general but for me, an engine needs to deliver in a certain way which is what you get from the likes of G4z, Pitstop, Oddified, Lissau, Cad, Abbate, hobby centre, MF Tuning and so on.
People think that an off road race engine is all about POWER!!!!!! well it isn't, it's about smooth delivery, fuel economy and having the horses where you want them and lets face it, off road engines aren't worked half as much as on road engines.
If one of these "basher engine tuners" wants to build a reputation they deserve then they need to get some engines on the track. You get an engine in the A final every week and people will take notice and pretty soon they won't be "joe bloggs the basher engine tuner" they will be "joe bloggs the race engine tuner that everyone uses".
Engines don't need to shout BLING with billet cases, chrome this and carbon that, they need to say "up yours gob5h1te, I won that race". A lot of these tuners use reed cases, they're just too heavy on fuel along with other bling, they're just not required on a race engine.
The reason I call them basher engine tuners is because thats what they are. MMR/BZM mcro ESP, TS, ONB and the rest don't do pure race engines for RC cars - if they did, you'd see them on the track at major events like has already been said. I've emailed various engine tuners over the years and none of them are interested/have the ability to give me what I require in a race engine - this doesn't mean that they're not good engine tuners or no good in general but for me, an engine needs to deliver in a certain way which is what you get from the likes of G4z, Pitstop, Oddified, Lissau, Cad, Abbate, hobby centre, MF Tuning and so on.
People think that an off road race engine is all about POWER!!!!!! well it isn't, it's about smooth delivery, fuel economy and having the horses where you want them and lets face it, off road engines aren't worked half as much as on road engines.
If one of these "basher engine tuners" wants to build a reputation they deserve then they need to get some engines on the track. You get an engine in the A final every week and people will take notice and pretty soon they won't be "joe bloggs the basher engine tuner" they will be "joe bloggs the race engine tuner that everyone uses".
Engines don't need to shout BLING with billet cases, chrome this and carbon that, they need to say "up yours gob5h1te, I won that race". A lot of these tuners use reed cases, they're just too heavy on fuel along with other bling, they're just not required on a race engine.
atom3624
Well-Known Member
No experience to comment on the above other than defo right about the consumption.
I really had to increase the settings when I installed the TS reed engine on my FG MT.
Al.
I really had to increase the settings when I installed the TS reed engine on my FG MT.
Al.
motorman
Well-Known Member
i agree moke, i really do. but, you know its hard to build a rep when there are so many race engine builders wherer you are at.
reed engines have no place on the race track, maybe like you say though, onroad 4wd might could use that kinda power but again consumption comes into play.
off road is finesse and the power required is much less than onroad. i agree in all counts, but esp enignes are smooth, buy the standards of american porters that is. most build spikey running engins, esp doesn't. that was my only point. they pul hard from the bottom to the top, smoothly, with no spikes along the way.
in all honesty, for off-road, a good stock engine in the 26cc range, maybe some mild transfer work, is the best setup. anything larger is overkill and again consumation goes up aswell, which yo don't want.
i also agree, the ecu stuff is just for the techno guys that like foolin with that kinda stuff more than anything. i am a bare bones kinda guy myself, maybe a good redrace setup but nothing more than that.
not pushing esp on anyone, just wanted to clarify that they are not these fullmod, rough powerband, highrevver only, engines. really are smooth, powerful engines. basher engine maybe, but can defo be used as a race engine aswell with good result. just need the driver to use them and prove it.
reed engines have no place on the race track, maybe like you say though, onroad 4wd might could use that kinda power but again consumption comes into play.
off road is finesse and the power required is much less than onroad. i agree in all counts, but esp enignes are smooth, buy the standards of american porters that is. most build spikey running engins, esp doesn't. that was my only point. they pul hard from the bottom to the top, smoothly, with no spikes along the way.
in all honesty, for off-road, a good stock engine in the 26cc range, maybe some mild transfer work, is the best setup. anything larger is overkill and again consumation goes up aswell, which yo don't want.
i also agree, the ecu stuff is just for the techno guys that like foolin with that kinda stuff more than anything. i am a bare bones kinda guy myself, maybe a good redrace setup but nothing more than that.
not pushing esp on anyone, just wanted to clarify that they are not these fullmod, rough powerband, highrevver only, engines. really are smooth, powerful engines. basher engine maybe, but can defo be used as a race engine aswell with good result. just need the driver to use them and prove it.
Mike1970
Well-Known Member
I'm not knocking any tuners, they do what they do. Most who say they do race engines, don't.
We have rules in racing, some people think they're stupid and some don't, the fact is that they are there. On road 23cc max, off road 2wd 26cc max, 4wd and short course class is 30cc max (not 30.5cc like some think).
ONB have just sent my mate a 28.5 all singing engine to go race in his Losi sc truck, it looks the dogs nuts but I don't think it'll out perform the normal engine he uses - time will tell.
I'd love to see more makes of car on the track just as I would engine tuners but unless they can do a legal race engine as per "the expected race spec" then they won't be known in the racing word. I'd like ESP to get in touch and say here you go, put this engine in your car and promote our company in the UK and Europe but I doubt they ever would.
One more thing that makes me cringe is when people on forums say "I've got this bibble blab tuning upgrade head & piston that will give me 900hp on a 29cclong mod full block widget pumer blah"
If you take two standard 26cc engines and put them on a dyno they will read "about" the same but if you take a head kit and modify it/tune it/port it they claim it will do 900hp - that is just wrong because you don't know the condition of the engine it's being fitted to, you don't know if it's been messed with of anything. On parts like this the tuner/manufacturer should state "THIS HEAD KIT MADE 900HP ON OUR TEST ENGINE, WITH OUR DYNO USING OUR PIPE, CARB AND FUEL MIX"
I have nothing against any tuners from the US or anywhere else for that matter.
renbar
Well-Known Member
im a basher only and run a 29cc +1mm stroker crank oddified 4 bolt built for me by ian for max pulling power i run this with the red race v2 kit and mk2 ecu and a 990 carb in a heavy 12kg+ all alloy 2wd fg beetle,now theres a fine line in 2wd cars on how much power you can have to much is just a waste of time and i will admit that ive crossed it and now the car is a bit much it just wants to wheelie to the point it ends in a barrel roll
i can detune this by changing or removing the ecu so alls not bad but it proves all power is not everything
i can detune this by changing or removing the ecu so alls not bad but it proves all power is not everything
Or get a Vo0 ported mill 
Pajero 23cc
KM Baja(full alloy) 26cc
mine @ 1.11
J
Pajero 23cc
KM Baja(full alloy) 26cc
mine @ 1.11
J
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atom3624
Well-Known Member
One does notice the difference in 'grass density' between videos 
I do miss those occasional visits, but I can't get out that much at the moment.
Al.
I do miss those occasional visits, but I can't get out that much at the moment.
Al.
dwarfy
Well-Known Member
The postman pat van got a mention for its wheelying prowess when I was out with Ren last week
if you want to race on track,then buy an engine thats been tested on track and does the business. oddified are huge in the uk racing scene, im not so sure in europe( mike can tell you)
i tried abit of track action and what i found was a stock 26 with a smooth track pipe was well enough for me, a tuned engine would have been useless as i wouldnt have been able to put the power down cleanly around the track ,if i was to get better i would have definatly gone for a 26cc oddie, but i carried on with bashing in huge places so brought a obr engine, i use the fg for straight line stuff, speed stuff,drag racing etc so wanted maximum power but with reliability , it drinks fuel like its water but for me and my needs thats not a problem ,just wanted maximum power in an engine that would last. i am very happy with the engine i chose and now that ive seen the performance of it i wouldnt change it for any other single cylinder piston port engine not because i think its the greatest because i don't,ive only ran 3 tuned motors so don't know what is best but because im finally happy with the power the fg has. i think these fullmods and big hp basher engines have it easy, to get big power and good fuel econemy must be very hard to achieve so hats off to the oddifieds and others that achieve great power and a tank that can last more then a race , we know power = more fuel.
to tell the truth, i wanted an oddi last year but could never get hold of ian, i tried for months with no luck but then by look i met him a few times at ndor. i guess he's a very busy man and think he may have been in europe some of the time.
i think if you search hard enough, over time you will get an inkling which are good basher engines and which are good track engines, for the price range i was looking for ,oneill brothers racing for straight line tarmac and grass racing,bashing and oddified for racing.
when going to the local track you talk to the guys that race around the country, and oddified came up over half the time. its a shame these other companies don't get into engines for racing but i guess from a business side,the basher motor market is huge.
regarding the 2 engines you have mentioned, ive never had any of them, but have seen how the esp engines go on 1/5 drag racing,they ripp!!! but drag racing is not track racing lol.sorry
i tried abit of track action and what i found was a stock 26 with a smooth track pipe was well enough for me, a tuned engine would have been useless as i wouldnt have been able to put the power down cleanly around the track ,if i was to get better i would have definatly gone for a 26cc oddie, but i carried on with bashing in huge places so brought a obr engine, i use the fg for straight line stuff, speed stuff,drag racing etc so wanted maximum power but with reliability , it drinks fuel like its water but for me and my needs thats not a problem ,just wanted maximum power in an engine that would last. i am very happy with the engine i chose and now that ive seen the performance of it i wouldnt change it for any other single cylinder piston port engine not because i think its the greatest because i don't,ive only ran 3 tuned motors so don't know what is best but because im finally happy with the power the fg has. i think these fullmods and big hp basher engines have it easy, to get big power and good fuel econemy must be very hard to achieve so hats off to the oddifieds and others that achieve great power and a tank that can last more then a race , we know power = more fuel.
to tell the truth, i wanted an oddi last year but could never get hold of ian, i tried for months with no luck but then by look i met him a few times at ndor. i guess he's a very busy man and think he may have been in europe some of the time.
i think if you search hard enough, over time you will get an inkling which are good basher engines and which are good track engines, for the price range i was looking for ,oneill brothers racing for straight line tarmac and grass racing,bashing and oddified for racing.
when going to the local track you talk to the guys that race around the country, and oddified came up over half the time. its a shame these other companies don't get into engines for racing but i guess from a business side,the basher motor market is huge.
regarding the 2 engines you have mentioned, ive never had any of them, but have seen how the esp engines go on 1/5 drag racing,they ripp!!! but drag racing is not track racing lol.sorry
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