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Also why you should not run less than oil than 25:1. Causes compression loss. I have also seen that.
Coleman fuel?
- Thread starter Ryneito
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Here it is, I copied it as it is great info:
The Truth about 2-Stroke Oils and Fuels
The purpose of this Thread is to give baseline fuel/oil requirements from the industry professionals directly to you. Information which is specific to our engines and not based off of other types or sizes of engines or opinions or hearsay. Our engines are unique due to their small size, modding, lack of lubrication surface area and very high RPM range.
I have taken the time to speak with the majority of the Engine porters and Manufacturers in order to compile what in essence is the Baseline for Engine operation. I have also spoken with quite a few 2-stroke Oil Companies to get their input on the situation. The information contained here is from companies in the USA. As I or if I obtain verification from oil companies abroad I will add it but only if it can be documented.
I want to be clear that this information is what is recommended by the industry for best performance and maximum engine life. There are of course going to be different opinions and different combinations used by certain individuals. There is no question that these motors will run on multiple fuel types and oil types and ratios.
Because there are so many variations and so many people using non recommended set ups the intent is to give accurate information based on as much fact as possible. Remember that what works for you in 1 one part of the country or world may not be sufficient for someone else. This is explained in further detail in the Fuels section.
Tuning is also an integral part of performance. A properly tuned engine running the proper fuels and oils will make it's best power. This has been verified by the industry professionals through years of testing and or dyno testing. Odds are if your new engine isn't running properly with the suggested oils and fuels then your tuning is off.
To my knowledge this is the first and only attempt at gaining this specific information directly from the industry as a whole. It is not meant to start or create an argument and is geared towards the new person looking for an appropriate place to start with their new RC.
These are the companies involved with the information being placed here:
OBR (oil preference Maxima Castor 927)
DogPile Racing (oil preference Polaris VES Gold)
ESP (oil preference Maxima Castor 927)
TS (I forgot to ask Trevor his oil pref but will add it when I speak to him again)
Cat 5 (oil preference Klotz R50)
RCMK (oil preference Mercury Quicksilver)
CC Race Engines (oil preference Mercury Quicksilver)
Zenoah
Klotz
Amsoil
VP Fuels
Motul
Maxima
2-Stroke Oils:
Recommended oil ratio of at least 25:1 5oz oil per 1 US gallon (by all industry professionals and manufacturers except for TS who recommends 28:1 in his motors).
This oil Ratio is recommended because of the small size of these engines and the small amount of lubricating surfaces inside of them. The smaller the engine and the higher it revs the more oil it needs to achieve proper lubrication and compression. More oil than 5oz per 1 US gallon will not hurt your engine. Its better to run rich than lean on oil.
Running oil Ratios higher (32:1, 40:1 and so on) than 25:1 (Can) create engine damage after prolonged use and will reduce performance and can cause blowback. This of course depends on multiple factors and I will cover that topic in more detail below.
What you need to know about 2-stroke oils:
The Purpose of 2-stroke oil is to maintain lubrication, create compression and cool your engine.
Not a single ONE of the oils on the market is specifically formulated for our high RPM stock and modded engines. Most of these oils and blends are designed for RPM operation in the 8-10,000 RPM range. However that doesn't necessarily mean they are not useable for our application. Never rely on what the Oil packaging states for Mix Ratios. Always mix at 25:1 (or what your specific engine manufacturer recommends) regardless of oil type. Just because a package says 50:1 or 100:1 mix doesn't mean that it's specific for our engine types. Engine life and performance is greatly affected by the quality of oil you use.
It is the consensus of the industry that if you run an oil ratio at higher than 32:1 you will start to lose power in your engine. However your engine will probably rev higher this is due to the lower compression ratio created by the lower viscosity of the oil/fuel mix but create much less torque. If an engine is tuned properly you should have the exact same performance at 25:1 with more torque.
What is TC-W3? TC-W3 is a certification given to Marine grade 2-stroke oils which meet certain requirements under the clean air and water act. At one point it was believed that these types of oils should not be run in our engines, this however is a myth. TC-W3 designation is not required for land based vehicles which is why you don't see it on most oil brands. Can you run it? Yes
Oil types:
Natural petroleum based- This oil performs well in most stock and modded engines and blends well with most any gasoline/fuel type. This would be the type of oil supplied with the cars from Losi or HPI.
Castor (Vegetable) Blends-Although castor oil is an extremely good lubricant it can be the cause of carbon buildup, specifically if not mixed with the right type of fuels. Ethyl blended fuel and castor oil will create a situation where build up is more prominent. Certain Castor blends such as Maxima's Castor 927 use a de-gummed form of Castor which is very good performing oil. If you are dead set on running castor oil make sure it's de-gummed.
Synthetics and Blends- Are a great option for running in stock or modded motors. There is however some new evidence that full synthetic oils may be causing blowback into the crankcase in extremely high RPM engines causing Bearing failures this is due to the oils superior lubrication properties. If running extremely high RPM engines over 17,500 you may want to stay away from full synthetics. I will add more on this once I do some more research. These types of oils can also be used during break-in for Stock and Modded motors. Although be aware that these oils can be affected by the type of fuel you are running. The consensus from the Oil companies is that the Oil Ratio of 25:1 does not need to be adjusted when synthetic oil is used. Stay away from Ethyl fuels when running synthetic blends.
The Truth about 2-Stroke Oils and Fuels
The purpose of this Thread is to give baseline fuel/oil requirements from the industry professionals directly to you. Information which is specific to our engines and not based off of other types or sizes of engines or opinions or hearsay. Our engines are unique due to their small size, modding, lack of lubrication surface area and very high RPM range.
I have taken the time to speak with the majority of the Engine porters and Manufacturers in order to compile what in essence is the Baseline for Engine operation. I have also spoken with quite a few 2-stroke Oil Companies to get their input on the situation. The information contained here is from companies in the USA. As I or if I obtain verification from oil companies abroad I will add it but only if it can be documented.
I want to be clear that this information is what is recommended by the industry for best performance and maximum engine life. There are of course going to be different opinions and different combinations used by certain individuals. There is no question that these motors will run on multiple fuel types and oil types and ratios.
Because there are so many variations and so many people using non recommended set ups the intent is to give accurate information based on as much fact as possible. Remember that what works for you in 1 one part of the country or world may not be sufficient for someone else. This is explained in further detail in the Fuels section.
Tuning is also an integral part of performance. A properly tuned engine running the proper fuels and oils will make it's best power. This has been verified by the industry professionals through years of testing and or dyno testing. Odds are if your new engine isn't running properly with the suggested oils and fuels then your tuning is off.
To my knowledge this is the first and only attempt at gaining this specific information directly from the industry as a whole. It is not meant to start or create an argument and is geared towards the new person looking for an appropriate place to start with their new RC.
These are the companies involved with the information being placed here:
OBR (oil preference Maxima Castor 927)
DogPile Racing (oil preference Polaris VES Gold)
ESP (oil preference Maxima Castor 927)
TS (I forgot to ask Trevor his oil pref but will add it when I speak to him again)
Cat 5 (oil preference Klotz R50)
RCMK (oil preference Mercury Quicksilver)
CC Race Engines (oil preference Mercury Quicksilver)
Zenoah
Klotz
Amsoil
VP Fuels
Motul
Maxima
2-Stroke Oils:
Recommended oil ratio of at least 25:1 5oz oil per 1 US gallon (by all industry professionals and manufacturers except for TS who recommends 28:1 in his motors).
This oil Ratio is recommended because of the small size of these engines and the small amount of lubricating surfaces inside of them. The smaller the engine and the higher it revs the more oil it needs to achieve proper lubrication and compression. More oil than 5oz per 1 US gallon will not hurt your engine. Its better to run rich than lean on oil.
Running oil Ratios higher (32:1, 40:1 and so on) than 25:1 (Can) create engine damage after prolonged use and will reduce performance and can cause blowback. This of course depends on multiple factors and I will cover that topic in more detail below.
What you need to know about 2-stroke oils:
The Purpose of 2-stroke oil is to maintain lubrication, create compression and cool your engine.
Not a single ONE of the oils on the market is specifically formulated for our high RPM stock and modded engines. Most of these oils and blends are designed for RPM operation in the 8-10,000 RPM range. However that doesn't necessarily mean they are not useable for our application. Never rely on what the Oil packaging states for Mix Ratios. Always mix at 25:1 (or what your specific engine manufacturer recommends) regardless of oil type. Just because a package says 50:1 or 100:1 mix doesn't mean that it's specific for our engine types. Engine life and performance is greatly affected by the quality of oil you use.
It is the consensus of the industry that if you run an oil ratio at higher than 32:1 you will start to lose power in your engine. However your engine will probably rev higher this is due to the lower compression ratio created by the lower viscosity of the oil/fuel mix but create much less torque. If an engine is tuned properly you should have the exact same performance at 25:1 with more torque.
What is TC-W3? TC-W3 is a certification given to Marine grade 2-stroke oils which meet certain requirements under the clean air and water act. At one point it was believed that these types of oils should not be run in our engines, this however is a myth. TC-W3 designation is not required for land based vehicles which is why you don't see it on most oil brands. Can you run it? Yes
Oil types:
Natural petroleum based- This oil performs well in most stock and modded engines and blends well with most any gasoline/fuel type. This would be the type of oil supplied with the cars from Losi or HPI.
Castor (Vegetable) Blends-Although castor oil is an extremely good lubricant it can be the cause of carbon buildup, specifically if not mixed with the right type of fuels. Ethyl blended fuel and castor oil will create a situation where build up is more prominent. Certain Castor blends such as Maxima's Castor 927 use a de-gummed form of Castor which is very good performing oil. If you are dead set on running castor oil make sure it's de-gummed.
Synthetics and Blends- Are a great option for running in stock or modded motors. There is however some new evidence that full synthetic oils may be causing blowback into the crankcase in extremely high RPM engines causing Bearing failures this is due to the oils superior lubrication properties. If running extremely high RPM engines over 17,500 you may want to stay away from full synthetics. I will add more on this once I do some more research. These types of oils can also be used during break-in for Stock and Modded motors. Although be aware that these oils can be affected by the type of fuel you are running. The consensus from the Oil companies is that the Oil Ratio of 25:1 does not need to be adjusted when synthetic oil is used. Stay away from Ethyl fuels when running synthetic blends.
G
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Reliable Proven oil Brands used by and or tested by our engine builders:
Maxima Castor 927 (de-gummed castor/synthetic blended oil)
Klotz R50 (full synthetic)
Amsoil Sabre (full synthetic)
Motul 800 (synthetic/esther)
Polaris VES Gold (full synthetic)
Mercury Quicksilver (TC-W3 certified Oil based)
There are numerous other types of suitable 2-stroke oils on the market but for the sake of this baseline information I am only going to include what is being used by the industry and proven to be clean burning with good lubrication and viscosity qualities.
Fuels:
Pump Fuels-
For the purpose of establishing a baseline and proper oil ratio mixtures, fuels used should be Non-Ethyl (containing no Ethanol). Octane ratings of 87-110 can be safely used in most of our RC engines. With 87-94 Octane being the most suitable for optimum performance depending on what is available where you live. Octane levels over 100 require higher compression as do fuels such as alcohol and or methanol.
If you have to use Ethyl fuel do not run Castor Oil or synthetic Blended 2-stroke oils as this will create gumming and carbon buildup. Do not store your RC with any fuel left in the tank or Carb.
There is another factor when using Gasoline designed for automobiles which are the different additives and oxidizers used by different oil companies and in different parts of the country and different times of the year. For example East coast gas and West coast gas are not the same nor is summer gas the same as winter gas. These additives can have adverse reactions with certain types of 2-stroke oils and is something to be aware of. Purchase small quantities of fuel at a time to make sure it blends well with the oil you are using and doesn't need to be shelved for long periods of time.
All pump fuels will have some degree of contamination either water or unhealthy particulates from the ground tanks. Always use a plastic sealed Gas Can for Storing unused fuel.
Packaged Fuels-
Packaged fuels such as VP can be very good and do not contain all of the automotive additives. They will also be stable much longer and in quart cans are easy to transport and store with a much lower risk of contamination. They are usually packaged directly from above ground tanks and blended in small batches to achieve a much higher quality product although at a much steeper price.
Alternative fuels:
Race Fuels high octane 100+
Methanol
Alcohol
Coleman fuel (55 octane) Everyone laughed when I brought this up and for good reason. Sure an engine will run on this fuel but it's power output is greatly reduced.
For the sake of a baseline in engine performance these fuels should only be used by experienced engine tuners racers as it's a bit tricky to get the tune perfect to reap any benefits from it.
Tuning also plays a critical role in engine performance and lifespan. Because there are so many factors to Tuning for each individual and all of the option parts available I have chosen not to cover that in this thread. Weather, altitude, humidity, option parts, exhaust, fuel oil types all can greatly affect tuning. There is no one simple solution for everyone.
For the Racer:
Now the above information is the Baseline which most people can use to expect high performance and long life out of their RC engine. For racers things can be changed a bit.
Heavily modded motors or purpose built motors can run on Oil ratios of 32:1 or 40:1 (although not recommended by any engine builder) but keep in mind these motors will need to be rebuilt more often and more damage (Can) occur. Running higher (leaner) oil ratios will also require retuning of the engine for proper performance. Do not assume that you can change ratios or octane levels significantly without retuning. For someone who is rebuilding a motor after every few races this isn't an issue. For the backyard basher and guy who doesn't want to be rebuilding motors it is advisable to stay away from the higher Oil Ratios.
Purpose Built Engines such as Trevor Simpson Engines:
Trevor Recommends an oil ratio of 28:1 and a Leaded Race Gasoline in his engines for optimum performance. Trevor also spoke about Oil ratios and said that More oil is not a bad thing and wanted to remind people that 2-stroke oils purpose is lubrication and to create optimum compression. Less oil= less compression= less power!
Special Warning from OBR:
The Guys at OBR wanted me to bring this to your attention. When switching carbs or buying a new carb do not assume that the Carb is pre-truned. OBR has seen a rash of motors come back from people slapping on new Carbs and running the car without re-tuning. Always readjust Carb settings on new carbs prior to running!
Doug at ESP makes a good point in stating that any time you tear down an engine you should find a liberal amount of oil on the piston and inside the motor. If you do not you are running too lean of an oil ratio or running a poor quality oil that isn't supplying enough lubrication. Doug recommends buying a quality oil from a motorcycle or power sports store rather than department stores. And use a good quality "Tacky" foam filter oil.
Doug also suggests that if you change the cylinder or pipe, you will want to retune the carb also. He has seen engines run great with perfect plug color with one pipe, then seize with a different pipe bolted on with the same carb and settings, on the same day. Any time you do something to your engine to change your engines performance, it is a good idea to start off rich, and dial back in.
Maxima Castor 927 (de-gummed castor/synthetic blended oil)
Klotz R50 (full synthetic)
Amsoil Sabre (full synthetic)
Motul 800 (synthetic/esther)
Polaris VES Gold (full synthetic)
Mercury Quicksilver (TC-W3 certified Oil based)
There are numerous other types of suitable 2-stroke oils on the market but for the sake of this baseline information I am only going to include what is being used by the industry and proven to be clean burning with good lubrication and viscosity qualities.
Fuels:
Pump Fuels-
For the purpose of establishing a baseline and proper oil ratio mixtures, fuels used should be Non-Ethyl (containing no Ethanol). Octane ratings of 87-110 can be safely used in most of our RC engines. With 87-94 Octane being the most suitable for optimum performance depending on what is available where you live. Octane levels over 100 require higher compression as do fuels such as alcohol and or methanol.
If you have to use Ethyl fuel do not run Castor Oil or synthetic Blended 2-stroke oils as this will create gumming and carbon buildup. Do not store your RC with any fuel left in the tank or Carb.
There is another factor when using Gasoline designed for automobiles which are the different additives and oxidizers used by different oil companies and in different parts of the country and different times of the year. For example East coast gas and West coast gas are not the same nor is summer gas the same as winter gas. These additives can have adverse reactions with certain types of 2-stroke oils and is something to be aware of. Purchase small quantities of fuel at a time to make sure it blends well with the oil you are using and doesn't need to be shelved for long periods of time.
All pump fuels will have some degree of contamination either water or unhealthy particulates from the ground tanks. Always use a plastic sealed Gas Can for Storing unused fuel.
Packaged Fuels-
Packaged fuels such as VP can be very good and do not contain all of the automotive additives. They will also be stable much longer and in quart cans are easy to transport and store with a much lower risk of contamination. They are usually packaged directly from above ground tanks and blended in small batches to achieve a much higher quality product although at a much steeper price.
Alternative fuels:
Race Fuels high octane 100+
Methanol
Alcohol
Coleman fuel (55 octane) Everyone laughed when I brought this up and for good reason. Sure an engine will run on this fuel but it's power output is greatly reduced.
For the sake of a baseline in engine performance these fuels should only be used by experienced engine tuners racers as it's a bit tricky to get the tune perfect to reap any benefits from it.
Tuning also plays a critical role in engine performance and lifespan. Because there are so many factors to Tuning for each individual and all of the option parts available I have chosen not to cover that in this thread. Weather, altitude, humidity, option parts, exhaust, fuel oil types all can greatly affect tuning. There is no one simple solution for everyone.
For the Racer:
Now the above information is the Baseline which most people can use to expect high performance and long life out of their RC engine. For racers things can be changed a bit.
Heavily modded motors or purpose built motors can run on Oil ratios of 32:1 or 40:1 (although not recommended by any engine builder) but keep in mind these motors will need to be rebuilt more often and more damage (Can) occur. Running higher (leaner) oil ratios will also require retuning of the engine for proper performance. Do not assume that you can change ratios or octane levels significantly without retuning. For someone who is rebuilding a motor after every few races this isn't an issue. For the backyard basher and guy who doesn't want to be rebuilding motors it is advisable to stay away from the higher Oil Ratios.
Purpose Built Engines such as Trevor Simpson Engines:
Trevor Recommends an oil ratio of 28:1 and a Leaded Race Gasoline in his engines for optimum performance. Trevor also spoke about Oil ratios and said that More oil is not a bad thing and wanted to remind people that 2-stroke oils purpose is lubrication and to create optimum compression. Less oil= less compression= less power!
Special Warning from OBR:
The Guys at OBR wanted me to bring this to your attention. When switching carbs or buying a new carb do not assume that the Carb is pre-truned. OBR has seen a rash of motors come back from people slapping on new Carbs and running the car without re-tuning. Always readjust Carb settings on new carbs prior to running!
Doug at ESP makes a good point in stating that any time you tear down an engine you should find a liberal amount of oil on the piston and inside the motor. If you do not you are running too lean of an oil ratio or running a poor quality oil that isn't supplying enough lubrication. Doug recommends buying a quality oil from a motorcycle or power sports store rather than department stores. And use a good quality "Tacky" foam filter oil.
Doug also suggests that if you change the cylinder or pipe, you will want to retune the carb also. He has seen engines run great with perfect plug color with one pipe, then seize with a different pipe bolted on with the same carb and settings, on the same day. Any time you do something to your engine to change your engines performance, it is a good idea to start off rich, and dial back in.
alfred e numan
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WOW! thanks for the posts r-c dad, great info. Ya know, If i were in an area with many gasoline engine users-cars-ailplanes-ect- I would try my best for everyone to pool there money and spring for a 55 gallon drum of Sunoco supreme race gas- everyone brings there own can- This stuff burns fast- and is enhanced for 7,000 rpm and up-
alfred e numan
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I do like to run 927, but there are better choices when its freezing out side. the 927 can seperate - I use Klotz most of the time. It mixes with just about anything. also, ever notice the discoloration on white colored plastic gas cans?- this is the aromatics in the fuel absorbing into the plastic. for long term storage a metal can will keep the fuel fresher longer- but keep an eye out for rust.- and the expansion-contraction of the can in wide temp changes.
Chief409
Well-Known Member
Summertime, I leave the can on the back porch. Getting cold now, so it'll go in the insulated garage, by the garage door where the seals are not all that tight. There is enough air circulation to keep any chance of vapor release, resulting in an explosive mixture, nil. Also, I use new cans for fuel, 2 gallons max.
Believe this, 23 years in Naval Aviation, 8 on carriers, and one house burned down by a roofing contractor, Fire Scares Me!
Believe this, 23 years in Naval Aviation, 8 on carriers, and one house burned down by a roofing contractor, Fire Scares Me!
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I know VP fuels are available here. I will pick some up one of these days and give it a try.alfred e numan said:
alfred e numan
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how the he%$ did a roofer get a fire going? - smoking on the roof and knock the coal into the insulation? --Chief409 said:
kingpin
Well-Known Member
that's all I run on all my trucks is coleman camping fuel and never had a problem, also when it's time to put them away for the winter you can bring them inside the house and the wife is happy no smell
alfred e numan
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30 miles from my place there is a gas station that has a pump with VP 110 C. 20 miles away on the Indian reservation they sell 92 octane non ethanol gas, they have a rewards on the rez card thats good for 5% off of everything - food- gas- I mix 50% VP- 50% 92 octane- 32-1 ratio- klotz. I do keep the gas cans out in the shed - never tried the camp fuel- I do know for a fact that the above mentioned brew-mix makes the cars run far better than normal pump gas-
Alfred, is it a waste just run the 110 octane straight? a citgo up the road a few miles sells 110, which i think is turbo blue...if i mix it it with 92 out of the pump, which is all i would be able to get my hands on, i would be introducing some ethanol into the mix, would this be such a small amount that i don't need to worry about it?
alfred e numan
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I would run the 110 race before i would run any gas with ethanol. Every bulk or tank farm in America is ethanol free. The owners of these places want nothing to do with ethanol junk because of the rust it will cause in the huge tanks- seal failures in the valving- pumps.- Ethanol cannot be shipped tru Americas pipelines either. its a big scam on every taxpayer in America. Sooo-- what i am saying is find a marina that sells gas for boaters- its ethanol free- or just go to a hot-rod -race car shop and ask them where the closest bulk plant- tank farm is that sells gas -has pumps on site.- Every bulk plant that I have bought gas from sells 10-15 cents a gallon cheaper than the gas stations.- mark up ya see? If you can find one of these places- you will want to run the real gas in all your full size cars-trucks- no more black soot in the tail pipe- no more water dripping out the tail pipe either- good for about 10-15% better gas milage also.- the engines oil will stay cleaner longer too.- I say agan- its the mother of all scams. why the hell do we let these people get away with things like this? 25% of Americas corn goes to make this.- as of 2011.