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Castor mixes cleanly with meth. Won't have any issues there unless the temp suddenly drops.(if your forecast is like ours you'll be fine) looking forward to the next edition of "I broke my nitro 2 stroke."
The 5ive-t on meth thread
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@Seandonato73 I have the mix in a liter bottle and I check it everyday and I have zero separation which I'm happy with. Seems the methanol keeps the top of the piston clean and it appears to leave zero carbon. Is that a characteristic of it or was it because I didn't have enough fuel?
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That is nitro methane. There is so much fuel washing through there it cleans everything up.
This is nitro methane top fuel dragster. It’s an old video but still accurate. The amount of fuel is crazy! I watched it again still can’t believe it.
I remember being in brainerd one year. For top fuel nationals. One of the pits spilled a few table spoons of it in the ground. Tried to light it with lighter. Wouldn’t light. Smacked the wet spot with a hammer and boom! It’s a crazy fuel!
This is nitro methane top fuel dragster. It’s an old video but still accurate. The amount of fuel is crazy! I watched it again still can’t believe it.
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Yea @Clubin nitro is a crazy fuel. Id consider this a forum team building thread. If you guys happen across useful info post it up here. If someone is good at number crunching and can give accurate ratios post it up. I welcome anybody that can help with getting one of these engines to run good and have good power output.
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Top fuel isn't the best to look at for our application. Rep had a few good articles he pointed me towards, and I found a few that were good reads, but not pertinent to a 2 stroke or anything that we could use. Top fuel is basically the wrong thing to look at with the engines we use. 98% nitro is great, but we don't have a little engine that till take it. Those engines are so pig rich with fuel at idle they are borderline hydrolocking the engines. They also face several issues that we don't have a fix, or room for in our rc. They run tons of spark advance and very, very strong ignition systems. I think one of the articles mentioned it like hooking up an arc welder to a spark plug, and even those are lucky to last one pass. (They run 2 ignition systems.) Some of the general things were useful, like not needing super high compression and large combustion chambers work best. (1.7 to 1 air fuel ratio, don't need to add much air to the mix, mostly fuel.) So it's a different idea to get used to. A good point of reference for what rep is trying to do, I found, is scale flight. They use ringed engines and some are even built for nitro. Some very interesting reading for sure. I think we got a few things nailed down that should result in better performance and (hopefully) some longevity out of the engine. It will be pretty interesting to see how things turn out. From some of the other reading it also seems as there's a sweet spot for how much nitro an engine can take in 2 stroke world. Pretty much its a fairly narrow window from what I've been finding. Say an engine is rated for 20% nitro, it will run the best from like 15 to 25% nitro, but you could still run less or more in it, but it won't be as efficient or make power on a linear curve like you would in a 4 stroke. Now add in rep is starting with an engine that was never intended to run nitro, so there's some experimentation that needs to take place to find its happy place. We also found out that there needs to be a very high ratio of oil used. Now some of the stuff I was reading was quite dated. But more then one I saw home brews foe nitro full with 20 to 30% oil. (Like 7 to 1 ratio) so with that and rep is using castor oil, we've decided he need to bump up on oil, and it's likely what contributed to the piston smear we saw in attempt 1.
I'm really excited to see what's going to happen with the information we've collected in the past few days, I'm expecting some exciting results.
I'm really excited to see what's going to happen with the information we've collected in the past few days, I'm expecting some exciting results.
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This is one I’d really like to see run on dyno just outta curiosity! A control/baseline run on meth then pulls with the nitro mix.
I know they’re completely different animals but Cletus McFarland did some pulls on a bone stock LS junkyard truck converted to methanol and then did pulls with different ratios of nitro. Pretty wild results changing nothing but fuel and timing curves. Definitely shows the potential of nitro.
Sean is completely correct about how fat top fuels run. I used to have seasons tickets for top fuel right at the starting line. Those monsters spit raw fuel out the zoomies at idle! Burns the hell out of your eyes.
I know they’re completely different animals but Cletus McFarland did some pulls on a bone stock LS junkyard truck converted to methanol and then did pulls with different ratios of nitro. Pretty wild results changing nothing but fuel and timing curves. Definitely shows the potential of nitro.
Sean is completely correct about how fat top fuels run. I used to have seasons tickets for top fuel right at the starting line. Those monsters spit raw fuel out the zoomies at idle! Burns the hell out of your eyes.
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@Bizzer cleetus is the reason why I'm here. His gains on nitro were insane for the rolled over truck 
... I wish 2 strokes didn't have to depend on oil in the gas for lubrication tho. But I should have another go at it today when I get home.
I'm going to start at 5 or 10% nitro and adjust from there. Plus sean pointed me to an article to set up a gas carb for Methonal so im building a 990 carb that should handle the exotic fuel mixture.
... I wish 2 strokes didn't have to depend on oil in the gas for lubrication tho. But I should have another go at it today when I get home.I'm going to start at 5 or 10% nitro and adjust from there. Plus sean pointed me to an article to set up a gas carb for Methonal so im building a 990 carb that should handle the exotic fuel mixture.
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Idk if it counts, but I'm running race gas with 2% meth, 0.6% nitro, through a spiral diaphragm.
I'm primarily using it as an octane booster / detonation suppressor. I definitely need more compression to take full advantage of the fuel, but it runs great!
I'm running kolts 100% castor. I've got a lot of carbon and gunk build up. I need to clean my plug often, and I run an iridium plug. It's the meth that's cleaning the engine. Castor oil burns very dirty, but that's part of why it provides such good protection. As synthetic oils break down, they turn into less lubricating compounds, as castor breaks down it provides more lubrication.
Iridium plugs will increase the heat range and advance ignition when running meth due to the catalytic reaction.
This is the info I found on several different dirt bike forums:
Back in 1983 there was quite a controversy in magazines about the tests that were necessary to measure the "lubricity" of various oils that might be useful in engines. Castor oil was used as the benchmark, but it was obvious no one knew why this was so. They apparently got a lot of info on various industry tests of lubricants, but these were really designed for other purposes. This was my answer. I will remind you that I was a lubrication engineer and not a chemist, but I drew my chemical info from Bob Durr, the most experienced lubricant scientist in the labs at Conoco.
Bob worked with my group on many product development projects and I can tell you that he is one smart hombre! Small changes were made in the text, but surprisingly very little has really changed since this was originally written. Here goes with the answer:
"I thought I would answer your plea for more information on castor oil and its "film strength", which can be a very misleading term. I have never really seen a satisfactory way to measure the film strength of an oil like castor oil. We routinely use tests like the Falex test, the Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test, but these are primarily designed to measure the effect of chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These "EP" agents have no function in an IC engine, particularly the two-stroke model engine types.
You really have to go back to the basics of lubrication to get a better handle on what happens in a engine. For any fluid to act as a lubricant, it must first be "polar" enough to wet the moving surfaces. Next, it must have a high resistance to surface boiling and vaporization at the temperatures encountered. Ideally the fluid should have "oiliness", which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.
Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work.
Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!
Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor oil with polyalkylene glycol like Union Carbide's UCON, or their MA 731. This mixture has some synergistic properties, or better properties than either product had alone. As an interesting sidelight, castor oil can be stabilized to a degree by the addition of Vitamin E (Tocopherol) in small quantities, but if you make it too stable it would no longer offer the unusual high temperature protection that it did before.
Castor oil is not normally soluble in ordinary petroleum oils, but if you polymerize it for several hours at 300 degrees F (149 deg C), the polymerized oil becomes soluble. Hydrogenation achieves somewhat the same effect.
Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar and has a great affinity for metal surfaces.
It has a flash point of only 445 degrees F (229 deg C), but its fire point is about 840 degrees F (449 deg C)! This is very unusual behavior if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 degrees F (176-204 deg C)and have a fire point of only about 550 degrees F (288 deg C), or slightly higher.
Nearly all of the common synthetics that we use burn in the combustion chamber if you get off too lean.
Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more and more complex polymers as the temperature goes up. Most synthetics boil on the cylinder walls at temperatures slightly above their flash point. The same activity can take place in the wrist pin area, depending on engine design.
Synthetics also have another interesting feature - they would like to return to the materials from which they were made, usually things like ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, or other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. We call this phenomena "unzippering" for obvious reasons.
So, you have a choice. Run the engine too lean and it gets too hot. The synthetic burns or simply vaporizes, but castor oil decomposes into a soft varnish and a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricity.
Good reason for a mix of the two lubricants!
In spite of all this, the synthetics are still excellent lubricants if you know their limitations and work within those limits. Used properly, engine life will be good with either product. Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds.
Like most things in this old life, lubricants are always a compromise of good and bad properties. Synthetics yield a clean engine, while castor oil yields a dirty engine, but at least now you know why! "
Bert Striegler
Bert was the Sr. Research Eng'r. (ret.) at Conoco Oil Co.
I'm primarily using it as an octane booster / detonation suppressor. I definitely need more compression to take full advantage of the fuel, but it runs great!
I'm running kolts 100% castor. I've got a lot of carbon and gunk build up. I need to clean my plug often, and I run an iridium plug. It's the meth that's cleaning the engine. Castor oil burns very dirty, but that's part of why it provides such good protection. As synthetic oils break down, they turn into less lubricating compounds, as castor breaks down it provides more lubrication.
Iridium plugs will increase the heat range and advance ignition when running meth due to the catalytic reaction.
This is the info I found on several different dirt bike forums:
Castor Oil vs. Synthetic Oil
By Bert Striegler.Back in 1983 there was quite a controversy in magazines about the tests that were necessary to measure the "lubricity" of various oils that might be useful in engines. Castor oil was used as the benchmark, but it was obvious no one knew why this was so. They apparently got a lot of info on various industry tests of lubricants, but these were really designed for other purposes. This was my answer. I will remind you that I was a lubrication engineer and not a chemist, but I drew my chemical info from Bob Durr, the most experienced lubricant scientist in the labs at Conoco.
Bob worked with my group on many product development projects and I can tell you that he is one smart hombre! Small changes were made in the text, but surprisingly very little has really changed since this was originally written. Here goes with the answer:
"I thought I would answer your plea for more information on castor oil and its "film strength", which can be a very misleading term. I have never really seen a satisfactory way to measure the film strength of an oil like castor oil. We routinely use tests like the Falex test, the Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test, but these are primarily designed to measure the effect of chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These "EP" agents have no function in an IC engine, particularly the two-stroke model engine types.
You really have to go back to the basics of lubrication to get a better handle on what happens in a engine. For any fluid to act as a lubricant, it must first be "polar" enough to wet the moving surfaces. Next, it must have a high resistance to surface boiling and vaporization at the temperatures encountered. Ideally the fluid should have "oiliness", which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.
Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work.
Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!
Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor oil with polyalkylene glycol like Union Carbide's UCON, or their MA 731. This mixture has some synergistic properties, or better properties than either product had alone. As an interesting sidelight, castor oil can be stabilized to a degree by the addition of Vitamin E (Tocopherol) in small quantities, but if you make it too stable it would no longer offer the unusual high temperature protection that it did before.
Castor oil is not normally soluble in ordinary petroleum oils, but if you polymerize it for several hours at 300 degrees F (149 deg C), the polymerized oil becomes soluble. Hydrogenation achieves somewhat the same effect.
Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar and has a great affinity for metal surfaces.
It has a flash point of only 445 degrees F (229 deg C), but its fire point is about 840 degrees F (449 deg C)! This is very unusual behavior if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 degrees F (176-204 deg C)and have a fire point of only about 550 degrees F (288 deg C), or slightly higher.
Nearly all of the common synthetics that we use burn in the combustion chamber if you get off too lean.
Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more and more complex polymers as the temperature goes up. Most synthetics boil on the cylinder walls at temperatures slightly above their flash point. The same activity can take place in the wrist pin area, depending on engine design.
Synthetics also have another interesting feature - they would like to return to the materials from which they were made, usually things like ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, or other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. We call this phenomena "unzippering" for obvious reasons.
So, you have a choice. Run the engine too lean and it gets too hot. The synthetic burns or simply vaporizes, but castor oil decomposes into a soft varnish and a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricity.
Good reason for a mix of the two lubricants!
In spite of all this, the synthetics are still excellent lubricants if you know their limitations and work within those limits. Used properly, engine life will be good with either product. Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds.
Like most things in this old life, lubricants are always a compromise of good and bad properties. Synthetics yield a clean engine, while castor oil yields a dirty engine, but at least now you know why! "
Bert Striegler
Bert was the Sr. Research Eng'r. (ret.) at Conoco Oil Co.
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What your siting is about 10 years out of date for 90% of the "synthetic" oils out there. Most synthetics theses days are actually highly refined crud base stocks. Very few are a true Ester or pag formulation. Thats been largely passed by because of their downfalls. There really no reason to run a pure castor oil, other then its cheap, and easy to come by. If you've ever followed the development of oils from even the mid 90 to now you wouldn't be running it. I'd happily put any of the newer fd rated oils, or a high quality synthetic made for alcohol usage against castor any day of the week. You'll have the same or better protection from scoffing and a much cleaner engine.
Iridium plugs also will not do anything to ignition timing, Change heat range or any other such nonsense. Timing for a pure meth engine needs to advanced slightly above gas standards and high concentrations of nitro need lots of advance, like 30-40* btdc base timing. We're at around 20* with a stock zen/Cy have or take a few degrees.
Iridium plugs also will not do anything to ignition timing, Change heat range or any other such nonsense. Timing for a pure meth engine needs to advanced slightly above gas standards and high concentrations of nitro need lots of advance, like 30-40* btdc base timing. We're at around 20* with a stock zen/Cy have or take a few degrees.
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Alright, I know nothing and I can prove it. What alcohol rated synthetic would you recommend? All I'm going off is my own independent research for what to run with a 2stroke methanol engine. Also it smells fantastic! Why is hobby nitro still at least 5+% castor oil on average?
I also find it hard to believe the interaction of iridium and methanol is null considering that's the whole point of platinum/iridium glow plugs.
Edit: clearly Rep heard the same advice, that some castor is good. Please school us on why it's bad, and what to use. We want to learn!
I also find it hard to believe the interaction of iridium and methanol is null considering that's the whole point of platinum/iridium glow plugs.
Edit: clearly Rep heard the same advice, that some castor is good. Please school us on why it's bad, and what to use. We want to learn!
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I'm not running hobby nitro , I'm running 100% high grade ZERO dilution top fuel nitro from hyper fuels. The stuff is far from glow fuel and im the one mixing my own stuff.
The reason why hobby glue fuel has a high oil content is also to help the glow engines seal and make compression for their lack of piston rings.
If I really want to I've read that I can completely bypass the ignition system and get it to fire off a glow plug but that's more than I'm willing to entertain here.
Also I'm not necessarily having an oiling issue, my carb could not keep up with the demand of fuel and since nitro carries its own oxygen and in the percentage it was I basically lean seized it on fuel which is unheard of but it was a good learning lesson.
The reason why hobby glue fuel has a high oil content is also to help the glow engines seal and make compression for their lack of piston rings.
If I really want to I've read that I can completely bypass the ignition system and get it to fire off a glow plug but that's more than I'm willing to entertain here.
Also I'm not necessarily having an oiling issue, my carb could not keep up with the demand of fuel and since nitro carries its own oxygen and in the percentage it was I basically lean seized it on fuel which is unheard of but it was a good learning lesson.
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I understand you're running a much higher grade and higher percentage nitro. That's why I asked if I even counted. Lol
I know they run high oil because they're ringless. I just mean why do all of the hobby fuels still use some percentage of castor if synthetic is far superior?
Yeah I understand chemistry and stoichiometric ratios. Just curious as to why you were recommended castor as well, yet Sean says otherwise. Wouldn't poor mixing of fuel/oil or fuel wash be an oiling issue? And he recommend you up your oil? I don't doubt it was lean. I can see the detonation on the piston, but more of the right lube might help?
I know they run high oil because they're ringless. I just mean why do all of the hobby fuels still use some percentage of castor if synthetic is far superior?
Yeah I understand chemistry and stoichiometric ratios. Just curious as to why you were recommended castor as well, yet Sean says otherwise. Wouldn't poor mixing of fuel/oil or fuel wash be an oiling issue? And he recommend you up your oil? I don't doubt it was lean. I can see the detonation on the piston, but more of the right lube might help?
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No it's not the whole point of iridium or platinum plugs, longevity of the plug of the point of using these specific materials. Regular plugs have a very short life in demanding conditions, platinum was a step up in performance, and iridium was better. This is more commonly seen in the automotive world with factory platinum or iridium plugs having a service life of 50/100k miles respectively, where as your luck to make 30k miles with a standard plug. Add in gasoline alcohol mixes your putting the plugs in a harsher environment. This was a trend that started in the late 90-early 2000's. Now a days its hard to find a factory plug that isn't platinum or iridium. Add in high modern tech, factory turbo charged, direct injection, higher compression ratios and the never ending need for lean burn engines (read emissions) you can clearly see the need for a more robust plug. Racing is very similar, higher demand means better materials are needed to withstand the harsh conditions we ask a plug to live with. It was pretty common back in the day to go off for a Friday/Saturday race and take a flat of plugs. Platinum plugs were practically a gift from heaven. Just off the top of my head, As per oils, klotz makes a few different varieties, the techniplate was actually formulated for kart racing, zero issues with meth, or nitro. Any way the kl-198, and heliglow are all fully synthetic varieties that contain no castor. Red line also makes a specific fully synthetic oil for alcohol fuels. We used klotz in dad's race boat.
I actually used their super techniplate untill a recent discussion with one of their techs over some issues I had with long term stability/storage. The conversation lead me to discontinue its use because of the hydroscopoc properties of the castor content in the oil. Part of this conversation he explained that high cylinder temperatures need to be maintained for caster to preform optimally and not lead to combustion chamber and ring build up. Since this I've completely switched to other oils, and had much better results. Castor just remains a decent, cheap, readily available option. I do not, and will not run any oil with any castor content in it.
I actually used their super techniplate untill a recent discussion with one of their techs over some issues I had with long term stability/storage. The conversation lead me to discontinue its use because of the hydroscopoc properties of the castor content in the oil. Part of this conversation he explained that high cylinder temperatures need to be maintained for caster to preform optimally and not lead to combustion chamber and ring build up. Since this I've completely switched to other oils, and had much better results. Castor just remains a decent, cheap, readily available option. I do not, and will not run any oil with any castor content in it.
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You know cy pistons look horrible on the dome right? That's not detonation at all, that's cy quality. This is where I got the castor suggestion from
i mixed motul micro 2t with just methonal and it did not come out of suspension. I also used high quality methonal from vp its M1 methonal, I've read of you have crappy or poor quality methonal you will have a hard time getting the oil to blend with it.
i mixed motul micro 2t with just methonal and it did not come out of suspension. I also used high quality methonal from vp its M1 methonal, I've read of you have crappy or poor quality methonal you will have a hard time getting the oil to blend with it.
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I understand the point of their use in an automotive setting. Especially combined with modern engine packaging! That's not exactly what I was referring to. I was always told that platinum/iridium in the glow plug of a glow engine reacts with the methanol catalytically, heating the coil/plug. Wouldn't the same thing happen to the tip of an iridium plug?
Yeah I plan on running super-techniplate next as the straight benol has a bit too much carbon build up. Haven't tried redline yet.
We run pretty high combustion and head temps compared to most air cooled 2 strokes? It seems like that's where castor shines.
Good to know that's it's hydroscopic, but that's kind of a null point when dealing with meth.
No I didn't know that. I've only seen the insides of used CYs. Never bought a new one, nor would I.
Edit: Man sorry! There seems to be little room for discussion at all on this forum.
Yeah I plan on running super-techniplate next as the straight benol has a bit too much carbon build up. Haven't tried redline yet.
We run pretty high combustion and head temps compared to most air cooled 2 strokes? It seems like that's where castor shines.
Good to know that's it's hydroscopic, but that's kind of a null point when dealing with meth.
No I didn't know that. I've only seen the insides of used CYs. Never bought a new one, nor would I.Edit: Man sorry! There seems to be little room for discussion at all on this forum.
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ok so that wraps up the derailment here. This thread is for FUEL and getting fuel into the engine safely, the methonal will prevent detonation period. No more spark plug talk there's zero room for it here, it was discussed to go to a colder plug so the spark plug doesn't get so hot it acts as a glow plug. Pick a spark plug of what ever brand you fancy and have at it.
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You could also run FAI fuel in it too. When using alcohol double the oil ratio. Because alky burns and is really clean of a fuel. I did this in our 35cc marine engine I converted to run in my 1/4 scale car. Ran a glow plug in it too. Flip switch ignite plug. Pull rope starts and runs like an ignition engine. 
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@TODD that's an awesome looking rig!... fai fuel? How did you manage a pum in a land rig? I've read if you have enough methonal in a car engine you won't need a radiator and also won't require an intercooler in a boosted application, pretty cool stuff. I've also read ignition timing and compression really make methonal worth the switch, so glow plug in a nitro is sustained by the methonal? Sorry for the questions I'm trying to learn from people willing to speak about it.
FAI model glow fuel. It's not a PUM engine. That why I said it was one of our 35cc engines. It was the early ones we made designed for marine use only. What I did was cut the cooling jacket wall off of it and make a nitro style head button for it with fins. The heads we had made two versions. One for a glow plug and the other took a regular spark plug and ran a Zenoah ignition system on it. We used to race alky and alky nitro combinations in the old G2D air cooled Zen engines. Usually sprint and supermods ran that. Grand National cars ran gas because the amount of laps and pitting was sometimes required during a race to keep in the rules. If you look you can find the glow plug adapters online. Pull plug out and add it than screw glow plug in. I used to run Byrons fuel in mine cut with 2 parts of alky. Worked good in that engine. But no where near the rpms we turning now and needed the more oil in the newer engines.
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